App Store Optimization – The Relationship Between ASO & SEO with Jackie Chu [Podcast]

How much Google knowledge and SEO experience is needed for Apple or Android app store optimizations?

Turns out plenty.

In this episode, Jackie Chu of Uber will be discussing ASO and how SEO’s may have an upper hand when it comes to the optimization of apps as some SEO knowledge spills over into the world of ASO.

Here is the entire transcript of the show (please excuse any transcription errors) :

Loren Baker (00:08):

Hi everybody. This is Loren Baker, founder of search engine journal. And with me today, we have a very special episode of the SEJ show with Jackie Chu from Uber. Hey Jackie, how’s it going? Hi, Beautiful Friday here in Southern California, Northern California as well,

Jackie Chu (00:26):

But yeah, it’s actually very beautiful. I’m really glad I get to spend it inside work.

Loren Baker (00:31):

Yeah. Yeah. I’ll take a ticket early to get an early yeah. Early happy hour. So it’s great to catch up. And have you on I know that we were talking about different topics to go over today for today’s show. And one thing that came up was app store optimization. And that really intrigued me, especially because the idea that you had talked about was what you learned as an SEO and how that can help you in the world of ASL. Right. And everything is after. And to the extent where Uber isn’t that first company, but then you also have other companies that are launching apps, right. Left and right games companies like Disney interactive that were, they have, they have their web presence and then they have all of the games of the launching and competing and things like that. So what does it really just like dive right in the app store optimization. So could you first kind of go over a little bit of an overview of what ASO is or what you consider it to be and how it how it connects to the role of SEO?

Jackie Chu (01:36):

Yeah, totally. So I think there’s kind of like two main buckets of SEO. Like if you were to compare it to regular SEO, there’s like, you know, tech, SEO, content SEO off page four apps for optimization. I really break it out into like two things. So it’s like one is like more traditional SEO concepts. And then probably another one is like, you know, half of the work that you really do is conversion rate optimization, because there’s so much you can do with like, you know, changing your images to changing like your icon to changing your copy. I think all of these things have like a really big impact on your downloads, especially being a really big brand like Uber or Dropbox or square, you’re getting, you know, the lion’s share of your searches coming in for branded search. So if you can improve your conversion rate by, you know, 50, 75%, which is like very actually like reasonable for a lot of these conversions optimization tests you know, it could be a really big impact to your bottom line, but from the SEO side, it’s actually kind of like SEO back circa 2011, 2012.

Jackie Chu (02:32):

And the reason why I’m particularly bullish on SEO is learning ASO is because I actually think that we’re really well-poised to understand like, where is ASO today? Where’s it going tomorrow? So I think at a, at a very high level, it’s important to know that you have like iOS and then you also have like Google play and both of these have like very different search algorithms and Google play doesn’t share the same search algorithm that, you know, Google search does. So that’s something to keep in mind too. It’s like quite a bit more like nascent. So a lot of times I was just a little bit more challenging to test on just because there’s a lot less lovers, you know, those like very, very basic concepts of app store optimization, like putting the keywords in the title. Ios also has, like, I met a keyword slot, which unlike for Google, which does not use that slot, they actually heavily rely on that slot.

Jackie Chu (03:18):

They’re not, yeah, it does work. It does work actually for a very long time because their search algorithm was so nascent. They couldn’t even like rank you for synonyms. You had to like directly say the keyword inside the title. Yeah, but I always tends to be really interesting from a, from an ASO perspective because even though it’s actually tends to be a very small percent of your users, like, you know, like 20, 80 rule in the U S I think we have like 50% split between Android and iOS, but if you go globally, then they actually have like, almost like 80% is Android. So like, it actually really matters a lot to care about Android, but then iOS tends to be where the majority of our dollars. So most people tend to focus on like iOS.

Loren Baker (03:56):

Thank you for bringing that up, by the way, I was doing some research on this and I was a little bit surprised on that. Not surprised cause when I’ve traveled, I’ve like Samsung powered, smart homes are the thing in most countries I’ve been to and this and that, but it was really interesting to see that Samsung and hallway both had a larger mobile market share than IO than Apple outside of the U S and it just kind of blew me away. It’s kind of like when you look at, in us a mobile browser statistics and you see how big Safari is compared to Chrome, right. It’s, it’s almost like it’s switched. Right. So thanks for bringing that up.

Jackie Chu (04:32):

Just like with any, you know, kind of like SEO, like, or I guess any kind of like business marketing initiative, you have to know like where your users and it’s easy to forget in the U S where we have such a consumer culture where everyone gets a new phone every two years, actually in like the majority of the world, like iPhone resale is a really big business. And so you actually need to be optimizing for like older versions of iPhones and like older operating systems because it’s not normal to have a new phone every single year, two years a new watch, you know, like have like, like, I dunno, like it has to hook up to your Oculus, like all these different lines. So, so yeah, so people like people tend to focus just on iOS more just because, I mean, usually they can be worth anywhere more from like five to 10 X of your, you know, like total dollars you’re bringing in. But there’s much less levers. It’s like a very, very nascent system. Like you literally generally have to put the keyword directly in the title. They give you about 30 characters. Yeah. There was a time where they gave you like a few hundred characters. But then as time has gone on it, then they trimmed it down to like a hundred characters and then they’re like, okay, 50. And then now they’re like only 30. Okay. Just put like title

Loren Baker (05:38):

Abuse of the system. Exactly.

Jackie Chu (05:40):

Because you would just literally abuse it because and this is why I was saying like, you know, SEO in particular are really well equipped to learn ASO from the search side, just because we’ve seen this evolution in our, in our own search, right. Where like before you had to have like exact match and then now starting to understand this concept, like synonyms and entities and, you know, and like user intent. So I think that we can really get to understand where it is today, but then also where it’s going, but they’re still really literal. Like you really generally need to say the keyword inside the title. You also want to say like synonyms and like kind of long tail words inside the medic keywords slots. So no one actually sees the medic keyword slot, like you’re using your, you just put it in, in the app store connect account, there’s about a hundred characters.

Jackie Chu (06:21):

And if you just literally put in your keywords, so for like, you know, point is square point of square at putting a sale at square, we would put in like POS and pause, which is like mobile POS like point point comma of comma sale. Like they’re very, very, very literal. So that is like, kind of like a, a good thing about so on the app store, it’s like, you know, pretty simple, but then I think on the negative side, like one thing that’s kind of like unique to ASO that is maybe kind of similar to like backlink building and authority. And the concept of authority in side of SEO is that you really need to have download velocity. So like kind of like in a sense of where, you know, sometimes it can feel like a David Goliath when you’re doing SEO where people like, I want to write for this really big keyword.

Jackie Chu (07:03):

And you’re like, you want to compete with like Amazon and like all these really big competitors, they have to be kind of realistic. For ASO, it’s also really important to have a similar amount of downloads. The people you’re trying to outrank for any non-brand keyword, just because that will be like a major limiting step. If you don’t have a similar amount of keywords, you’re just not going to rank for those keywords. And it doesn’t need to download. It’s not going to rank for those keywords and they don’t need to be organic downloads. They can be paid downloads too.

Loren Baker (07:27):

Yes, that’s what I was going to say. So I’m thinking like a hybrid approach where you have your PPC, that’s getting that app. It’s like paid search, right. That apps at the top, no matter what everyone’s searching for, even if I’m searching for Fortnite, I’m going to get an ad at the top for a completely different game. That’s similar. Right. But then if that can accelerate your download philosophy. So people are downloading the downloading, the downloading Apple, or whoever sees it. It is a popular amongst that group with that intent, then therefore the organic rises up. I wish that would happen as fast in SEO as it does in the app stores.

Jackie Chu (08:01):

Oh, and that’s one of the things that turnaround time is one of the things I love about ASO and another reason why I think, you know, SEO, people should like to definitely learn a little bit more about how search works in like other PR networks, not even just like, you know, the applicant even like elated for awhile was talking quite a bit about like YouTube. These are things that we’re really well equipped to understand and can really like own the SERPs in a way.

Loren Baker (08:22):

And you bring that up because I hear so many people, like, especially old SEO’s like me that when we started, there’s so many different stories, so many different search engines out there, right. And now it’s mostly Google and then there’s being, and then there’s like, duck, duck go, or some other infants, some in the infancy stage, but that’s not true because there’s Google there’s well, as soon as sound very antitrust oriented, but it’s Google, Google my business, YouTube, Google play store, there are various search. Yeah. There are various search algorithms optimized for based upon the, the, the media or the type of technology that uses the type of content usually to get out there. Right. So I’m glad you bring that up because it’s true. Like you have to put on your, your normal Google hat and then your Google, my business hat, and then something else going from, from group to group. And there are common denominators with that, like basic knowledge of this year.

Jackie Chu (09:20):

No, totally. And that turnaround time is so amazing because we think about like, you know, SEO projects, they can take no weeks, months, easily at a really big company. Sometimes even like years building. And there’s a lot of risk, right? Like a lot of times when we talk about like how to do SEO and enterprise talk about like, you want to like hedge your bets, doing smaller wins, and then like kind of do a swing for the fences project, hedge it with like a lot of like more reasonable like SEO projects. But the nice thing with ASO is you don’t really have a lot to lose if you’re not already ranking for like a one, a lot of non-brand terms. What harm does it cost to try to like optimize for non-brand trips? You’re not really like wasting engineering resources. You’re literally just putting copy inside of a few, like keywords slots.

Jackie Chu (09:58):

There’s not a lot to lose and you can actually learn with every two week cadence for iOS. So for iOS, you really need to ship these updates with each release. But in a really big company, that’s generally going to be like a two week cadence. Like that’s most companies with apps will like fall into this two weeks cadence in the Navy. If something’s really, really wrong, they’ll do like an emergency release, but generally speaking year. And it’s like every two weeks. So every two weeks literally you could be like learning and it’s, it’s so much sponsored because the algorithm is very nascent. You pretty much see changes within like a day or two. And so if you’re getting that kind of feedback and you’re don’t really have anything at risk, like why wouldn’t you optimize for the app store? Because you know, even just ranking for like one more non-brand keyword, we would see several thousand incremental downloads a comment. And, you know, that could be like a lot of money for something where all you’re doing is literally just like essentially optimizing metadata.

Loren Baker (10:49):

Have you found that running ad campaigns for app downloads in Google ads that are in the SERPs themselves, like in the search result, and then it has the call to action to download the app. If you’re an IO device or an Android device, have you found that in your experience to be as beneficial as advertising within the app store or the same? Or have you experienced,

Jackie Chu (11:13):

So are you talking about like, like download campaigns, like, and like that side, like for certain I’ve not really dug deep into that. I will say pretty much every company I’ve worked at has started playing with like Apple search ads. So like the actual ads within the search of cells, just because like a lot of the a lot of the, the reason why like, ASL is so interesting is because just like normal search, you know, a lot of the times people, people like download an app, it starts with a search. So, so things like Apple search ads and then like most of the focus tends to be an Apple or dreads, you know, maybe just because again, it’s like 80 20 rule of like, where’s your money coming from? And in every company I’ve been in, it’s like, probably not,

Loren Baker (11:52):

It’s a long-term of the user too. Right. I believe Apple users have much more value and retention.

Jackie Chu (11:58):

And especially when you think about like, you know, how, how search works at large, you know, there just tends to be a focus on a lot of the branded terms, you know, non-brand tends to be like low, much lower ROI for like a lot of paid channels then like bidding on your branded terms. But I’ve mostly seen that to be like a really, really cheap source of acquisition. And I don’t know if that’s just because they’re like fairly new still. I think they’re still like working through like a lot of the kinks, you know, and I think as time goes on, they also get more expensive things, get more saturated as like more people start bidding on words. But yeah, I’ve always seen really good success with those like kind of more in store app platforms how much looking into the society,

Loren Baker (12:40):

What about a Google play or the Google play store? Like what are some pros like I know and correct me if I’m wrong with, with Apple, you do have to wait until you have a release, which is cool to feel like Fortnite, right? Because every time I try to play fortnight, I have to update the app every single time. Well, actually that’s not even in the Apple store anymore, so nevermind. But on Android I believe, or on Google play, you can, can you update your profile or the texts on your listing anytime or do you have to wait for an update on that side?

Jackie Chu (13:11):

Yeah. Well, that’s one of the awesome things about Google play is literally if you have a really good relationship with your developer and they give you access to the Google play console, you can really do everything inside of Google play, which is really cool. So the Google play console is just kind of more astute in general. Maybe again, kind of playing to Google’s appreciation for, for search and the kind of like background in search, but there’s a lot of really cool things you can do Google play. So the first one is just like the ease of use, which is like, you don’t have to wait to align to like whole bunch of this like release train with your iOS team, you as like a normal user inside the account can actually like update the title as well as the subtitle and description.

Jackie Chu (13:52):

Kind of like search the interesting thing though with Google play versus iOS is they do have a better concept of like search fan iOS does for iOS are really looking at like your title and like your Medicaid Workspot and that’s pretty much it maybe doing some very like bare bones review of overview of like your reviews for Google play. They actually allowed like a really, really big description a little bit of a longer Tylee, like 50 characters. They had like a subtitle and actually they’re able to actually read these things. And so, you know, one kind of like concept that comes up a lot is like keyword density, which is like a very simplistic, like, but I’m talking about like keyword density in the context of like, almost like a TF IDF, like a very, very nascent idea of a fewer density.

Jackie Chu (14:34):

Like when you talk to like ASO practitioners you know, a lot of times they’re just looking for like the counts of repetitions, because right now, like that’s not really even seen as family. That’s kind of considered like a best practice. Cause it’s funny because like that’s what works cause it’s cause like, right. Like a lot of these things like back in the day, that’s just what you did as a yeah, no, no, no. But you know what SEO is have like again, this like concept and background in like how search works, how information retrieval works. And I think that we’re really well poised to take on this kind of challenge to work with like the marketing team, like to like add descriptions that are like search friendly. And I think that that’s like a great advantage as an SEO practitioner. But also understanding like how to make these things like future-proof so that they’re like hopefully a little bit less spammy, like, you know, as these algorithms get more stringent will be like well-prepared to help them navigate that as well.

Jackie Chu (15:24):

Another thing that’s really interesting on Google play is the concept of backlinks. So that’s also something that’s also something, Ooh, I don’t like we, okay. Not like any of us know anything about that, but I mean, it’s really funny. I used to think I’ve gone to a few ASL conferences listening to, you know, these like very decorated practitioners speak about ASO and they’re like, well, you know, if you, you need to get this thing called like a back link, you know, it’s really funny hearing somebody else talk about backlinks other than us, but they’re really talking about it from the concept of like, just we’ve only ever done ASO. Right? Like we think about, you know, backlinks at scale, we think about like local little backlinks non-English backlinks, you know, they’re really thinking about like, Oh, well this is a backlink, this is, this is why you need it.

Jackie Chu (16:05):

And then they’re like, you know, if you want it, if you want to get a backlink from someone just type in, you know, your like best baseball games or whatever it is you’re trying to rank for. And then like reach out to the writer and ask them, can you include our app? And that’s how you get it back. Like, so sometimes it totally works, but my, but that’s where I really think that SEO is like, we’re so used to thinking about this kind of stuff like that, like acquisition at scale, you know, we probably know some like writers, we know some like influencers that we could work with. We really understand how, how these things work. So I, I just think that we’re really well-poised to, yeah.

Loren Baker (16:39):

Sounds like I have to start attending some or speaking at ASO conferences about how to build backlinks, as opposed to speaking at a conference in a room full of back linkers being at an ASL conference for wherever. It was like, Ooh, you can do that. Like magic.

Jackie Chu (16:56):

It was really funny. And like, I think of a moment for me where I had like a kind of aha moment was you know, one of the practitioners was speaking on stage too. And he was like, you know, it’s really interesting when you have if you’re, if your company title has the keyword in it, you’re much more likely to rank for that keyword. And I’m like trying to think back in my head, like when did SEO people stop talking about exact match domains? I mean, come on, low-key a lot of people still do it still kind of works, you know, but it’s like those, a lot of these search, again, these concepts in search or something that we’re just like so familiar with. I think it’s very easy for us to extend it to the app stores and frankly kind of like dumb it down a little bit.

Loren Baker (17:37):

How about on the analytics and performance side do these tools do, do they report on that side? Like which keywords are driving the most downloads, which keywords are driving the most repeat or active visitors time? Like, or are there tools that you typically integrated in, in the past that helped to define that a little bit better?

Jackie Chu (17:56):

So out of the box, the tools I would say overall are not great, especially on iOS. They don’t have very good analytics. They just give you like very top level metrics for the most part of like, you know, impressions and like downloads. Like you can do like country dimensions, et cetera. But for the most part, it’s, it’s pretty it’s pretty difficult to tie your, your efforts to any like sort of impact, which I think is one of the challenges of, of doing app store optimization. It’s not the, it sounds linear, right? Like if I am trying to rank for like point of sale or like taxi rides or something like that, I can create a page for taxi ride that didn’t exist before, get it to rank, see the traffic come in and say like, Oh, okay. Like all, every, all the revenue we generated from these pages is by from SEO.

Jackie Chu (18:35):

And like, even then that feels like a very loose correlation to a lot of people compared to SEM. But one of the challenges with the app store is you just have this one page there’s one page is your doorway to all the other keywords you’re trying to rank for. So for iOS though, they really give you almost like, no they give you like almost no keyword data, Google plays a little bit better, actually Google plays a lot better from a platform perspective in general. They do give you like impressions of like the actual keywords. So you can see that your impressions went up and like down for like a single first single keyword, which is really nice. And that’s something that you just don’t get on iOS, but again tends to not be as, as, as a main company focused as iOS tends to be on like a lot of US-based companies. But that’s why a lot of people will substitute with either third-party tools or again, leveraging your, your app store data. So that this is where I actually really love working with paid search teams to leverage their Apple search ads data, to understand like, okay, what, what keywords do I need to optimize for which keywords are truly, truly driving downloads from a non-brand perspective that aren’t just like,

Loren Baker (19:37):

Yeah. Or not just downloads, but activations right. Or activations after a certain amount of time as well. Yeah.

Jackie Chu (19:47):

Yep. Which is always really difficult to and then, but you know, really popular third party tools. Like a lot of really big companies will use at any. I think it’s probably unnecessary for most companies and it’s honestly like way out of price range for, for most smaller companies like re this is like a very enterprise level tool. The reason why most enterprises buy is because every other enterprise buys it, honestly. And then, and then also they, since they are this kind of they are kind of like the industry standard for like enterprise mobile. They tend to be connected to a lot of people’s like developer consoles. And so that way you can like, kind of guess that their numbers, that they say that, that our estimated download numbers for your competitors are like, kind of similar to the truth. But again, it’s all third party tools that are just like estimates.

Jackie Chu (20:30):

And so you just have to kind of take it with a grain of salt that it’s not as like clear. Yeah. But they, they do offer like a lot of engagement metrics inside of, at Vandy. But I think for, you know, smaller practitioners, I think tools like apt week or awesome apt week is pretty much just like some rest or age refs for SEO. So you can do, like, you would research, you can see like, you know, get a rough swag of like what a keyword volume is, see a, what are you ranking for those keywords and start tracking them over time. And they’re really, really cheap for like 70, 60 bucks or like another one. Right.

Loren Baker (21:01):

Cool. So it is like SEM rush or HF second common denominator. Like everybody has it as a backup.

Loren Baker (21:09):

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Ah, this isn’t working, let me run it on HS. Okay. Got it. Now, have you found that keyword data that, that that you’re getting either from the store backend or a tool set or from a pay campaign to be valuable with what you’re doing with traditional SEO or vice versa? Right. Because you’re looking at a whole different set of KPIs where it may not be a direct sale, but it’s, it’s that ongoing usage. Like trying to think of an app that my significant other uses all the time yucks Y O X or guilt or any of those right. That that are being used on an ongoing basis. Therefore they’re probably buying from that. But point being is like, do you find that that keyword data and the performance data from ASO helps with SEO and then vice versa on that front?

Jackie Chu (22:03):

I think probably mostly with the opposite way, which is like SEO, helping with ASO, just because, you know, the ASL keywords tend to be super down funnel because you have these ideas of like character limits and you’re only optimizing this. One-Page like, essentially you’re like app storefront. Like you can’t really optimize for that many keywords. Like in theory eats the keywords, you could optimize an SEO or like somewhat endless, not really. Cause you know, you’re probably not going to rank for like random keywords, but you can, you can like actually add keywords, right? Cause you can go like down following, you can own all those, then do middle then top of funnel. You don’t really have that option instead of iOS and Google play, you really only have the ability to like target like a very tight ecosystem of keywords. So most of the time you already kind of know those keywords through your SEO research.

Jackie Chu (22:46):

So where I actually think at the SEO research tends to be really helpful is like, if you have an app page already in your site, which a lot of times you will, you can see like what keywords are driving to those writers. Right. And that’s like data that like an ESL person wouldn’t know, even knows exists, right. From either like some rush or search console to see like, you know, what are the keywords that are driving to this app page. But then also as you think about things like future-proofing your ASO efforts and you think about the Google play description, you know, today everything is very literal as we start thinking about like long tail keywords. And as they start thinking about things like, like synonyms, like what are those synonyms that you could be including? And those, those that Google play description that maybe aren’t, that maybe aren’t as important enough to put inside of your title or inside of your subtitle, but would really actually add like helpful context inside of your description to make it seem more natural too, and not so keyword stuffy, but then also yeah, future-proof your efforts.

Jackie Chu (23:38):

So I think that being an SEO person is like really helpful to like make the ASL a little bit more

Loren Baker (23:46):

Diverse. So here’s a question say I’m in a company I’m in a, I’m in a larger tech company, right. Where I may be doing SEO in one division. Maybe I’m under marketing or maybe I’m under products. Right. And then, then the ASO may be under mobile or it may be under a different division within the company. Do you have any tips or techniques for if I’m not actively working on ASL, but I see there are issues or maybe there’s opportunities that are not being taken care of on how to communicate that internally to make that step from on the SEO side of the house and at least get some influence on what’s being done on the ASO side.

Jackie Chu (24:27):

Yeah. I feel like, like this is, you know, we’re so used to as SEO people, getting people to like care about AR

Jackie Chu (24:36):

And I think, you know, it’s, it’s actually a very similar a very similar story set up that you would do for SEO, which is like, what is the opportunity? You know, most downloads in the app store occur with a search currently like app users. You know, if you have like any juicy nuggets, like a lot of times to app users tend to be like higher values is they’re like easy to re-engage as well. Cause you could like, you know, do pushes you have like, especially the app first company, there’s so much focus on, re-engaging like an app user. It’d be like, so you just wanna like kind of set up the story of like, this is why we should care. This is what ASO is. And then I think the thing that really gets people like to make some have like a level of urgency is when you compare yourself to competitors, it’s easy to be like, Hey you know, door dash, whoever it is that you’re looking at ranks this high, we should we’re, we’re like missing out on competition, I think.

Jackie Chu (25:25):

And it doesn’t even matter what it is in my experience. If you say that your competitors have this advantage over you, it like lights a fire in people and they don’t even care. Like it doesn’t even matter if they’re met that metric. No one cared about it yesterday. All they cared about one thing and they want to like level the playing field. And I think that that’s like a good way to, to get urgency. And I actually, but I’ll be, I’ll be honest in every company I’ve been in no matter like how big the company I’ve always found like the mobile product teams to always be like really open to working with SEO on ESO initiatives, you know, sometimes with weapons hearing. I think that that, that relationship is built over time. But in my experience with like mobile apps, you know, everyone’s really interested in, in winning and, you know experimenting with ASO. And so I think that that’s like a, another really gratifying thing about ASO is that

Loren Baker (26:16):

It sounds like it right. Especially while you’re waiting for those releases, you’re waiting for the releases and your SEO fix tickets to get in the ability to do something that’s kind of instant is also, it’s very gratifying at the end of the day.

Jackie Chu (26:29):

No, totally. I mean, I remember when square, when we started ranking number one for like pus and point of sale and like M POS everyone was like, wow, good job. And I’m just like, I didn’t, I was like, I literally

Loren Baker (26:45):

Magic. So Jackie, we’re almost out of time. I dropped her your Twitter profile in here for anyone that wants to follow you on Twitter. Also your LinkedIn for connections, where else can we find you online? What are some things that you’re working on are very passionate about and how can people connect you?

Jackie Chu (27:02):

Yeah. So you can find me online. I have to make sure that this is right. Thanks Jackie, c2.com. I almost never blog, but I’m trying to get more into that habit. Also on Twitter, I tweet quite a bit just like, I guess the recipe SEO world things I’m really passionate about is probably like team building. Uber’s hiring right now. If you guys are interested, we’re hiring for some growth STL. Some content SEO is actually right now. And I think, I believe one tech SEO head count too. So, so if you guys are interested in joining an awesome SEO team, let’s go

Loren Baker (27:32):

Awesome. So if you have any interest in Uber hit up, Jackie, I’m always looking and it’s been a pleasure. You know, I learned so much on these podcasts. I’ve learned so much about ASO today. I I’m in the back of my head, I’m just thinking like, what are the opportunities out there in the client base? How are they doing things? It’s just, it’s just kind of a new awakening, so to speak, right? And then that is one thing that excites me about Google is that we have search console. We have publisher network or whatever, and we have a merchant Google merchant. We have Google play. We have everything else from like these back ends of data that we can play with and learn from. Right. So the ability to do so I think is fantastic. So thanks for that reminder on that front. Let me start looking into that a lot more.

Jackie Chu (28:18):

You don’t have a lot to lose. Yup,

Loren Baker (28:20):

Exactly, exactly. Whatever we can do to move the needle. So, so thank you so much for joining me today, Jackie, and thanks everyone who has had the chance to attend live just as a reminder, this is going to go out on the audio podcast with the search engine journal show upcoming few weeks. It’s been a pleasure. So thank you very much. Absolutely.